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Funky Papa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,694

STOCKHOLM (Nyhetsbyrån Direkt) Paradox's investment in Vampire The Masquerade - Bloodlines 2 was seen as a first step for the gaming company into the role-playing game genre. But after the game has been delayed several times, that step is no longer as obvious, but Paradox now wants to wait and see how the game is received before the next big bet is made.

This is what CEO Fredrik Wester says in an interview with Nyhetsbyrån Direkt.

Paradox, with its roots in strategy and management games, announced the role-playing game Bloodlines 2 in early 2019. After shooting the game release several times, Paradox landed earlier this year in that there is no longer a fixed launch year. Throughout the delay period, however, there has been talk that Bloodlines 2 will open the door for Paradox into a third game genre - role-playing games.

Will you that you already are in the genre to stay or do you want to first see how it goes for Bloodlines 2 ?

"I would like to see how Bloodlines is received before we invest the next big money in the genre. There is a huge desire for good games in the role-playing game genre so I absolutely do not want to close any doors. But I would like to see what happens, what can we do and how Bloodlines is received ", says Fredrik Wester.

The schedule for Bloodlines 2 has been affected by both staff dropouts and the pandemic. The decision to adapt the game for the new console generations Playstation 5 and Xbox Series X has also contributed. The game has been developed for several years by Hardsuit Labs, a game studio that is 33 percent owned by Paradox, but in February the news came that a collaboration had begun with a new studio partner.

How close have you been to shutting down the game, or has it become too big not to continue?

"When we lifted the game from the original developer, we had a long review in case we should end the game or run it further. Then we were actually prepared to close the production completely. But we got a 'pitch' that we thought was convincing enough to run. played on and we have very good hopes that it will be a good game that meets the players' expectations ", says Fredrik Wester.

Paradox has not yet announced who took over the development of Bloodlines 2 . Fredrik Wester fits the question but states that it is "a very reputable and talented developer" who has made a number of different games before.

Bloodlines 2 is part of the World of Darkness series and is based on one of many brands (IP) Paradox took over with the purchase of White Wolf Publishing several years ago. The most famous are Vampire: The Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse and Mage: The Ascension. In addition to the ongoing work with Bloodlines 2 , Paradox has, among other things, licensed a number of IPs in recent years.

Paradox has previously said that the company will eventually want to make many of the games in the World of Darkness universe itself. But with a delay for Bloodlines 2 , it seems that at the moment it is leaning towards more outlicensing.

"I also think we should start looking a little more at which active partners want to start working with our World of Darkness IPs. We have to ask ourselves how we should do to develop the brand and the universe, if we should maybe co-finance, how we will work with licensing and so on ", says Fredrik Wester.

When Bloodlines 2's developers were replaced at the beginning of the year, there was speculation in the industry media that the game more or less needed to be redone from the beginning. However, these are speculations that Fredrik Wester does not confirm, but he states that much of the development that was done then can still be used in the game.

There has also been speculation in a launch of Bloodlines 2 at best in 2023?

"We have a while left, so you could say", comments the CEO.
Some quick takes:

-The fact that they were close to shitcan it altogether makes me wonder about the state of the game at the time they took it from Hardsuit Labs. So much for "it's almost done".

-They had a new pitch. The more I read into this, the more I think they are trying to cobble together a new game from whatever they had left.

-Paradox doesn't seem happy with the way the WoD IPs are being developed. And I kind of agree. The visual novels have been well received, but I don't think they are helping to move the Vampire franchise forward, Werewolf was fairly mediocre and Wraith had to sell in triple digits. The lore is immense and there's potential to make some unique things, so I hope they farm them out to competent developers with more ambitious ideas and budgets.
 

Omnipotent

User requested ban
Banned
Feb 28, 2021
1,428
I really hope something good to great rises from the ashes of this but the chances of that seem quite slim unfortunately. This was one of the games I was looking forward to most despite not playing the original based on everything I'd seen and heard about both games, but I suppose there isn't much to do or say about things right now beyond wait and see. Hope we get more actual info and some footage soon(tm)
 

Pandora012

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,496
ugh, please not 2023...then again, i really want this to come out great. So more time, would hopefully help with it.
 

Rover_

Member
Jun 2, 2020
5,189
this is one of the biggest Matt McMuscles "What Happun" in the making before our eyes.
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
Why are they being so secretive on who the dev is? So bizarre.

Yeah, this is weird.
Although maybe, the dev is truly a studio that would generate a lot of hype, and they want to avoid another Brian Mitsoda situation, where any problems during the development and publisher intervention will generate a ton of bad will for them because the developer has a cult following? So maybe they want to keep the developer secret until they're sure the game is going to be good?
Idk. Not many other reasons why they wouldn't want to announce this.
 

Omnipotent

User requested ban
Banned
Feb 28, 2021
1,428
Yeah, this is weird.
Although maybe, the dev is truly a studio that would generate a lot of hype, and they want to avoid another Brian Mitsoda situation, where any problems during the development and publisher intervention will generate a ton of bad will for them because the developer has a cult following? So maybe they want to keep the developer secret until they're sure the game is going to be good?
Idk. Not many other reasons why they wouldn't want to announce this.
Something along these lines is what I'm thinking as well
 

Phokal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
453
WI
My gut says the secrecy is because this is a Microsoft funded game pass deal and the dev might even be first party like Obsidian or inixile. They want to show it when it's ready to be in a game pass trailer reel. Just a guess.
 
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OP
Funky Papa

Funky Papa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,694
Yeah, this is weird.
Although maybe, the dev is truly a studio that would generate a lot of hype, and they want to avoid another Brian Mitsoda situation, where any problems during the development and publisher intervention will generate a ton of bad will for them because the developer has a cult following? So maybe they want to keep the developer secret until they're sure the game is going to be good?
Idk. Not many other reasons why they wouldn't want to announce this.
Or maybe the studio is just a B tier one with a background in ports and support, which would be the required skills to put a game together from the original material. Not exactly something that would reignite the hype among the people that still have the game preordered.

The postmortem sure is going to be something.
 

thedas

Member
Jul 25, 2018
488
My gut says the secrecy is because this is a Microsoft funded game pass deal and the dev might even be first party like Obsidian or inixile. They want to show it when it's ready to be in a game pass trailer reel. Just a guess.

My broke ass really hopes you're wrong. I've been waiting forever, I don't want to watch someone else play it
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,075
After all the fuckery that's gone on with this game, and the fact that key people left the project, and the caginess of who the developer is, I had already written this game off in my mind. I don't expect it to be good if it ever comes out. I hope I'm wrong.
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
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Aug 22, 2018
8,852
Or maybe the studio is just a B tier one with a background in ports and support, which would be the required skills to put a game together from the original material. Not exactly something that would reignite the hype among the people that still have the game preordered.

The postmortem sure is going to be something.

That's the other possibility, yeah, but Hardsuit wasn't exactly a studio to set the world on fire based on their previous output, correct me if I'm wrong?
So if they replaced them with someone similar, the announcement wouldn't do a lot of damage.
But yeah, we can only guess at the reasoning of Paradox execs at this point, we have almost no information.
 
Oct 29, 2017
5,354
The shitcanning of Brian Mitsoda left a very bad taste (unless it was for misconduct but there's no talk about that AFAIK), I don't have much confidence in this game at all
 

Secret Bambino

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Mar 21, 2021
2,929
Man, I was so excited for this :(

"When we lifted the game from the original developer, we had a long review in case we should end the game or run it further. Then we were actually prepared to close the production completely. But we got a 'pitch' that we thought was convincing enough to run. played on and we have very good hopes that it will be a good game that meets the players' expectations ", says Fredrik Wester.

It kinda sounds like Paradox is just gonna start from the beginning again? Or cobble something up with what was already developed by Hardsuit?
From the demo they've showed years ago, the game "seemed" to be doing alright -- but of course it was all probably smoke and mirrors, given that they considered canceling it altogether. What a mess.
 

Sumio Mondo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,937
United Kingdom
My gut says the secrecy is because this is a Microsoft funded game pass deal and the dev might even be first party like Obsidian or inixile. They want to show it when it's ready to be in a game pass trailer reel. Just a guess.

I doubt Microsoft want anything to do with this mess. Especially trying to cobble together this or the bad PR of taking something from a passionate dev team and just "getting it out the door" as it were. If it was a complete do over (Prey 2 vs Prey by Arkane Studio, for example), sure, but it still reads as a project of basically putting it all together and finishing the job.

That's the other possibility, yeah, but Hardsuit wasn't exactly a studio to set the world on fire based on their previous output, correct me if I'm wrong?
So if they replaced them with someone similar, the announcement wouldn't do a lot of damage.
But yeah, we can only guess at the reasoning of Paradox execs at this point, we have almost no information.

Yeah Hardsuit was absolutely not looked upon as an exciting prospect until we saw Brian Mitsoda and saw the other project leads talking about the game with such passion and understanding for the IP, who have all gone now.

Plus if it was a port studio who are cobbling this together, that still makes it weird not to just say who it is. Hasn't it been over a year now since all the project leads have left? You'd think at this point a decision would have been made how the game looks, who's making it, especially since the game has been in dev for years and years at this point. As it is, it just becomes yet another game on the vaporware pile. So tragic.
 
Oct 31, 2017
8,466
It kinda sounds like Paradox is just gonna start from the beginning again? Or cobble something up with what was already developed by Hardsuit?
From the demo they've showed years ago, the game "seemed" to be doing alright -- but of course it was all probably smoke and mirrors, given that they considered canceling it altogether. What a mess.
Well, that's exactly what I said I heard months ago from "sources close to the publisher", paired with a 'best case' prediction of a 2023 release.
People got angry that I was pulling it out of my ass, though.

Personally at this point I'm still not confident that this will see completion at all.
 

NCR Ranger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,870
I would love to know who the new developer is. My money is personally on Harebrained since unless I missed something they have been quiet since they announced they were done with Battletech and are part of Paradox.
 

Joris-truly

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
845
Netherlands
Fuck me, this situation still sounds dire.

The legendary "Immersive Sims, the design philosophy that kills studios" curse is still in full effect.

Curious who's the new developer.
 

Menome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,422
I've still got my pre-order on Steam, so I'll play whatever releases in the end, or have the funds for another game become freed up when it gets cancelled. 🤷‍♀️
 
Oct 31, 2017
8,466
Here's hoping. If not them, then I hope we get some info on what they are working on at least. I enjoyed their games and can't wait to see what they are up to.
Bloodlines 2 would be fairly different from anything HB has done so far, but if nothing else they are arguably the most credible studio Paradox has when it comes to developing a competent RPG.
And it would be hard for anyone to argue with a straight face that they are a "downgrade" from Hardsuit Labs.
 

wwm0nkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,588
Yeah for sure sounds like it got hit with the reboot stick
Also if it's HB I am super onboard with that. Let them do a FP Shadowrun RPG next too ;)
 

Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,451
ive already given up hope so yeah if they put anything out ever i'll be surprised
 

Xater

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Oct 26, 2017
8,907
Germany
Bloodlines 2 would be fairly different from anything HB has done so far, but if nothing else they are arguably the most credible studio Paradox has when it comes to developing a competent RPG.
And it would be hard for anyone to argue with a straight face that they are a "downgrade" from Hardsuit Labs.

The HB devs are great and delivered super cool games, but this seems bigger and almost out of their wheelhouse?
 
Nov 16, 2017
1,740
My gut says the secrecy is because this is a Microsoft funded game pass deal and the dev might even be first party like Obsidian or inixile. They want to show it when it's ready to be in a game pass trailer reel. Just a guess.
Obsidian has their hands full with Avowed and Outer Worlds 2. InXile maybe. I could see Microsoft throwing some cash at it though.
 

708

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,358
IRIC, there was a 'project FPS' with HB as the developer in the Nvidia leak.
 

Secret Bambino

▲ Legend ▲
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Mar 21, 2021
2,929
Well, that's exactly what I said I heard months ago from "sources close to the publisher", paired with a 'best case' prediction of a 2023 release.
People got angry that I was pulling it out of my ass, though.

Personally at this point I'm still not confident that this will see completion at all.

Yeah, it looks pretty bleak.
But if Harebrained is indeed the one doing it, I will remain hopeful, they are a good studio and it would fit with their RPG expertise.
That said, this type of project is very different from their past games, so I imagine it would be quite a challenge for them.
 

Genesius

Member
Nov 2, 2018
15,549
Bloodhunt seems like it's being received extremely well. I hope more people check it out, especially when it hits console.
 

Calvinien

Banned
Jul 13, 2019
2,970
Just give it to Inexile already. Microsoft will stick in on gamepass and even if it doesn't light the world on fire at first, if it is in any way good it should reach a big enough audience to merit a sequel.
 

Dandy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,463
Paradox owns Harebrained Schemes now, right? Maybe that's who is making it now.

If not, I hope they are working on a CRPG set in the WoD. Their Shadowrun games were really good, and I'd love to see them take on WoD.
 

InspectorJones

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,622
Never has a game announcement excited me more and then slowly transitioned to complete apathy. Will need to see big great things from whatever the end result is to get any excitement back.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,031
I don't doubt there were development issues that Paradox were concerned about, nor do I want to invalidate Paradox's perspective on this matter. And if they felt it was almost worth canning, so be it. But I think it's worth taking a grain of salt with anything Paradox says on the matter. The power imbalance in this dialogue is enormous; Hardsuit has nowhere near the sway that Paradox has, and has a lot more to lose revealing truths of the matter that may not necessarily paint Paradox or the production pipeline in a positive light. Paradox, on the other hand, has nothing to lose throwing Hardsuit under a bus, and it's in their best interest to do so if they still plan to release Bloodlines 2 in some form and continue growing the VtM IP.

This is going to be a one sided dialogue for a good while until a fly-on-the-wall leaks what actually happened. Which could be entirely validating of everything Paradox says. But my gut (amongst other things) leads me to believe that there's probably two meaty sides to the story of what happened with Bloodlines 2.
 

SaberVS7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,258
I don't doubt there were development issues that Paradox were concerned about, nor do I want to invalidate Paradox's perspective on this matter. And if they felt it was almost worth canning, so be it. But I think it's worth taking a grain of salt with anything Paradox says on the matter. The power imbalance in this dialogue is enormous; Hardsuit has nowhere near the sway that Paradox has, and has a lot more to lose revealing truths of the matter that may not necessarily paint Paradox or the production pipeline in a positive light. Paradox, on the other hand, has nothing to lose throwing Hardsuit under a bus, and it's in their best interest to do so if they still plan to release Bloodlines 2 in some form and continue growing the VtM IP.

This is going to be a one sided dialogue for a good while until a fly-on-the-wall leaks what actually happened. Which could be entirely validating of everything Paradox says. But my gut (amongst other things) leads me to believe that there's probably two meaty sides to the story of what happened with Bloodlines 2.

Hmm, while a large part of me wants to think some Prey 2/Human Head fuckery went down and Paradox are lying through their teeth (Especially with the news going around about Paradox being an incredibly toxic company)... If we still consider Chris Avellone credible in any way, he did an interview a few months back where he was asked "What happened?" and opted to very heavily imply that Hardsuit only hired-on him and Mitsoda in a Token capacity just to have their names attached to the project in a way that came across to him as the studio trying to Buy their way into having credibility as a studio with the pedigree to take on such a project.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,031
Hmm, while a large part of me wants to think some Prey 2/Human Head fuckery went down and Paradox are lying through their teeth (Especially with the news going around about Paradox being an incredibly toxic company)... If we still consider Chris Avellone credible in any way, he did an interview a few months back where he was asked "What happened?" and opted to very heavily imply that Hardsuit only hired-on him and Mitsoda in a Token capacity just to have their names attached to the project in a way that came across to him as the studio trying to Buy their way into having credibility as a studio with the pedigree to take on such a project.

I can believe that about Avellone; wouldn't be the first time his name was attached to a project as a selling point that ultimately amounted to very little contribution. I remember a bunch of Kickstarters doing this. But I find that very hard to believe about Mitsoda, given Mitsoda was branded the lead writer and director of the project, wrote the initial pitch alongside Hardsuit, and has precedent to be wholesale invested in the project given his history with the predecessor.

I mean, it could be true. But while I could totally believe Avellone was tokenistic representation for a marketing bulletpoint, I'd be shocked to hear Mitsoda was the same.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,196
UK
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With Paradox's own problems about harassment and mistreatment of workers from low pay to layoffs, and mismanagement, they're probably hoping to pin the blame on the developer so they can distract from focus on them and like EatChildren said, this will be a one-sided conversation due to the power dynamic.